# How To Scientifically Measure Product-Market Fit How To Efficiently and Accurately Segment Users Into Cohorts, Why Investors Analysing CAC's at Pre-Seed Is Not Useful & How To Determine Between Customer Feedback to Accept vs Reject with Daniel Eric 20VC · Jun 5, 2020 · 27 min · 6,065 words Speakers: Harry Stebbings, Daniel Erickson Source: https://www.996.fm/episodes/20vc--ep-63018033/ ## Cold open **Harry Stebbings** [0:00]: are listening to the 20 minute VC and founders Friday with me, Stebbings, diving straight into the show today. What is one of the most confusing questions in technology and startups? Product market fit. How do you know when you have it? There are so many different answers to this question, but the founder joining us in the hot seat today has built a company and product that can and so much more. So I'm thrilled to welcome Daniel Erickson, founder and CEO of Viable Fit, the startup that allows you to find product market fit faster than ever by collecting structured user feedback to measure product market fit on an ongoing basis. And Daniel's raised funding from the likes of David Sacks at Craft Ventures, Jeff Morris Jr. Todd and Rahul from Superhumans Fund, and then also Brianne Kimmel at Worklife Ventures. And prior to founding Viable Fit, Daniel was VP of engineering at Eaze, and before that spent time as CTO at Getable, and then also had a front row seat for the hypergrowth of Yammer with a two and a half year stint there. I'd also want say huge thank you to Todd Goldberg and Jeff Morris for some fantastic questions suggestions today. I really do so appreciate that, chaps. But before we dive into the show today, ## Sponsor read **Harry Stebbings** [0:59]: you have to check out Main Street. Main Street helps startups discover tax credits and incentives they didn't even know existed. The average startup using Main Street will save more than with less than thirty minutes of work. Now that's an incredible ROI. and it's an incredibly easy way to get non dilutive cash to help extend your runway, especially in these times. So go to mainstreet.us/20vc to skip the waitlist and get a 25% discount. It's free to sign up. They only make money when you make money. It's a total no brainer. And speaking of total no brainers, the team over at Pendo, the product cloud company, just launched a free product performance benchmarks microsite where you can see how your product stacks up against your peers. They gave me a sneak preview and my reaction was like, holy hell. I know so many founders who are desperate to compare their products to competitors. And that's what Pendo's done. They've analyzed more than a thousand software products and created benchmarks for startups, scale ups, and enterprises across five different categories. It's all presented with some pretty slick visualizations, you should check it out at pendo.io/product-benchmarks. That's product However, that's quite enough for me. So now I'm delighted to hand over to Daniel Erickson, founder and CEO at Viable Fit. Three, two, one, zero. You have now arrived at your destination. ## Conversation **Harry Stebbings** [2:23]: Dan, it is such a pleasure to have you on the show today. I've heard so many great things from a range of people from David Sacks to Jeff Morris Jr to Todd Goldberg and Rahul. So thank you so much for joining me today, Dan. **Daniel Erickson** [2:33]: Thanks so much for having me, Harry. The pleasure of mine. **Harry Stebbings** [2:35]: Not at all. Listen, I'm excited for this one, but I do to start with a little bit on you. So hit me. How did you make your way into the world of startups first, and how did you come to found today Viable Fit? **Daniel Erickson** [2:45]: Sure. So my co-founder and I are identical twins, and we got our start in tech at around the same time. went I the engineering route and he went the design route, but we both love product. So we've been focused on product for a long time. Back in 2006, we co-founded an app development agency up in Portland, Oregon that built prototypes for super early stage products. We worked with dozens of clients to help make their vision come to life. Eventually, though, I got the itch to focus on a product for the long haul instead of just helping founders prototype their initial MVP. So I moved down to the Bay Area in late and by early I was working at Yammer as an early engineer. When I joined, we didn't have a designer yet, so I brought Jeff on board to help on the design side. We were somewhere around 30 employees at the time, but it was pretty clear that we had product market fit, and we were growing like crazy. Two and a half years later, after growing from people to about 550, we were acquired by Microsoft. But after the acquisition, I found myself in a 90,000 person company that not only had multiple products, but whose target market could be summed up as simply everyone. So I got the itch to switch back to the early stage, and I joined Getable as its CTO. Getable was a construction equipment rental marketplace that was still in its infancy. I spent the next four years there trying to find product market fit, but we never really found it. So after Getable, I moved into the VP of engineering role at Eaze, cannabis delivery app. Jeff joined me shortly after. This was in 2016, so it was before California had legalized adult use. But Eaze clearly had product market fit in the medical delivery market. I spent the next three and a half years there building the best software team in the cannabis industry and meeting challenges of legalization. The dream had always been to start a company with Jeff one day though, and product market fit was still on our minds. Specifically the question, how do you find product market fit? And when you get it, how do you keep it? I found that answer to both of those questions when David Sacks tweeted out a link to Rahul Vohra's Superhuman Product Market fit article on the first round blog. I read the article and I listened to Rahul's first minute VC episode. In that episode, Rahul explained the framework he used at Superhuman to measure and improve their product market fit. If you haven't listened to that one yet, by the way, I highly recommend it. it. quickly became clear to us that this was a repeatable process, but that it requires dedication and a lot of work to pull it off as well as Superhuman has. So Jeff and I got to designing the most magical take on this framework that modern technology would allow. We wanted to make it simple for you to run the survey in a continuous and automated way. Segmenting users needed to be quick and automatic. It needed to be easy to identify your product's strengths and surface the things that are holding your users back from really loving your product. Your roadmap should be automatically prioritized as you come up with project ideas, and it should help you strike a balance between investing in your strengths and working on the long tail of features and fixes that will help turn less enthusiastic customers into fanatical supporters. And that's what we built, a system to help products measure and achieve product market fit that automates away all the painful parts unless you focus on building. **Harry Stebbings** [5:29]: Before we dive into kind of the system and the mechanics itself, I am really intrigued because you mentioned a couple of different cases of product market fit there and lack of in Yammer, Getable, and Eaze. I guess specifically with regards to PMF, what were your lessons on experiencing the product market fit of each engine, maybe starting with Yammer and progressing? **Daniel Erickson** [5:46]: At Yammer, we struck gold pretty early on. We were one of the first products to bring consumer thinking to the enterprise, putting the user first instead of the buyer. Yammer used the same tools that consumer startups were using to evaluate the success of our product. We measured virality, growth, engagement, and retention, and we ran A/B tests to make sure only the features that move the needle made it into the product. We could tell from these metrics that we definitely had product market fit, but we never had a leading indicator for it. My time at Yammer taught me the importance of validating your ideas through metrics and testing. Getable, the other hand, was a lot different. When I joined the team, we didn't have a product yet, let alone paying customers. We didn't have any metrics to track, but we did have a lot of ideas to test. So I spent my time talking to customers, literally wearing hard hats on job sites to watch them work, and iterating through many MVPs in search of product market fit. Though we never found it, I learned the importance of staying close to your customers and making them a part of your process. Eaze, also a very different experience, was a rocket ship on a roller coaster. Being in the cannabis space, we had to deal with a lot of chaos and we had curveballs thrown at us every week. Sometimes these curveballs were more like cannonballs, like when adult use opened up in California in 2018, Eaze had product market fit in the previous market, medical only. But in 2018, we had to deal with both a changing market and regulations that forced us to change our delivery model. We spent the next couple of years moving in and out of product market fit, which taught me the importance of understanding how your market is changing. **Harry Stebbings** [7:03]: I think it's like fascinating to think about kind of product market fit as something very transient. I think most people think of it as kind of this block status that I've achieved product market fit, and now it's kind of this permanent status. I guess before we dive in, you know, there's so many terms thrown around for how to define product market fit from Sean Ellis to Sam Altman to Paul Graham. I guess for you, having spent so much time on it now and having seen so many different variations, how do you define product market fit to founders today? **Daniel Erickson** [7:26]: Sure. Like Rahul did with Superhuman, we use Sean Ellis's definition. You have product market fit when at least 40% of your users say that you would be very disappointed if they could no longer use your product. **Harry Stebbings** [7:36]: Totally love that as a definable and it's rare to have kind of like a data rich one where there's a core milestone, which is why I love that one so much. But you said before it's the single most important metric for a startup. Bluntly, Dan, why is it so important? why is it the most important metric? And what happens if you don't have it? **Daniel Erickson** [7:53]: Well, without product market fit, your marketing won't resonate with its audience, so it's not going be cheap to acquire new users. users. will churn when their expectations aren't met, so your LTV is to be low. Your customers won't refer others, so viral growth pathways will be closed to you. No one will be talking about you, so landing a story in a publication or landing an investment is to be tougher. So it's important to track your PMF even before you start measuring other indicators like CAC and LTV or even growth and engagement. **Harry Stebbings** [8:18]: Can I ask then, if you think about like timing, when's the right time to start measuring for PMF? Is it in literally the beta when you have your first few customers onboarding, or is it when you kind of raise your seed round and you've got multiple thousand or, you know, multiple logos on board? When does one start measuring? **Daniel Erickson** [8:33]: So no matter where you are in the product development cycle, the answer to this question is the same. The right time is now. If you're already growing like crazy, you never you never know when your market's going change. I mean, look at the current COVID situation. People's markets are changing from under them right now. If you're an early stage startup and still in the wilderness, you're to need a North Star metric, and PMF is the only metric that's going tell you how close you are to hitting that growth stage. So it works for both early stage and growth stage and even later stage if you're expanding into different product lines or wanting to understand your customer segmentation a little bit better. **Harry Stebbings** [9:05]: You mentioned that kind of tax being high, LTVs being low. I totally agree with you. and you kind of really see that, especially kind of you know, in a lot of companies today. My question to you is I often laugh when I hear about investors really trying to understand the granular minutiae of tax and LTVs at seed stage. And really, it's so transient and, you know, CAC volatility is so high, especially with platform costs being where they are. Would you agree with me in terms of kind of actually denigrating focusing so exclusively on CACs and LTV at seed? And how do you approach centrality of unit and at seed? **Daniel Erickson** [9:37]: So in my opinion at least, seed stage is definitely too early to start measuring CAC and LTV, but they're still super important to keep in mind. You to be sure that once you find product market fit, your unit economics can work out for you. PMF is a much better seed stage metric because by showing you how much your product is resonating with your customers, it tells you when to start focusing on CAC and LTV. Once you reach product market fit, that's the time when you can really start thinking about positioning of your marketing messaging to drive down your CAC. That's also when you know that LTV is to be long enough because you're not to have as many churning. So in my mind, PMF is a much better metric for those kinds of companies. **Harry Stebbings** [10:12]: Okay, so I need to track it now. and PMF is like the best metric to track for these kinds of companies. I'm a startup founder I'm like, shit, I need to start tracking PMF. In terms of, like, putting that into a process, what's the one simple question? Who do I ask it of and what options do I give them? **Daniel Erickson** [10:27]: Sure. So we recommend that you send a survey out to all of your users, and this is generally right after they've been able to see the value of your product. So if you're a transactional startup like a marketplace, it might be after their first purchase. If you're a enterprise SaaS company, it might be a couple weeks after they've been using it for a while. Same with something on the consumer side. So we asked one simple question at the very beginning of this survey, and that is, how disappointed would you be if you could no longer use this product? We give the user three options, not disappointed, somewhat disappointed, and very disappointed. This single question allows us to calculate your product's PMF score. Segmentation is key here though. Some of your users might not actually be in your target market. Without defining a target market and marking each user as in or out of that market, you won't know your true product market fit. **Harry Stebbings** [11:13]: Can I ask, in terms of that segmentation, and this is off schedule, but I'm too intrigued, founders often think like, oh, it needs to be a huge market. And so can't segment to affluent prosumers creating content on a daily basis because that's not a big enough market for VCs. How would you advise founders in this segmentation phase to think about the right size market to kind of fit into their segmentation? **Daniel Erickson** [11:34]: So start with where your most passionate users are. You should really be targeting the largest segment that you have that has the highest PMF score. So when you're digging into your segmentation, you should be looking at which different customer groups are interacting with you and which one of those would be most disappointed if they could no longer use your product. And then just really target in on that customer base. Even if it's small, it gives you a foothold. And from there, you can expand that into a larger market. **Harry Stebbings** [12:00]: Can I ask and again, off schedule, but I'm too intrigued. When you think about kind of asking this core question, what's the right way to ask it? Do you see differences in terms of response rates between SMS versus email versus Facebook message? How do you see the different mediums playing into response rates? **Daniel Erickson** [12:16]: Every medium has a different response rate. We're very focused on email because surprisingly, you actually can get a really high response rate through email. People are used to going through their email and checking things out, and you can actually make the email really focused on answering that first question. So what we do actually is we embed the first question in the email itself and give users three buttons that they can click for the three different answers. This ensures that we get up to about a 40% response rate for that first question. **Harry Stebbings** [12:42]: Wow. That's incredible. 40% is, yeah, well done for that. I guess my question is, you know, speaking of kind of engaging with those customers very, very, early. We've seen a massive rise of closed beta products with everything from Superhuman to Clubhouse more recently. What do you make of the closed beta model and how does that impact your early PMF score? I guess it would mean much higher response rates and maybe more engaged product loving users. **Daniel Erickson** [13:04]: Yeah, I think that's true. I think closed betas are super interesting for a subset of products. Prosumer tools and consumer apps are specifically well suited for this and that you can just keep bringing more people in. If you use the PMF score, it allows you to only bring in users who are the right fit for your product's current feature set. And it allows you to expand that user base as your product appeals to new customer segments. So measuring the PMF of each customer segment can help you figure out which segments to bring in at which time. If you take this approach, you may see that you reach product market fit much faster, albeit with a smaller initial target market. **Harry Stebbings** [13:34]: Can I ask how quickly and again, off schedule, how quickly do you advise founders in terms of expanding segments? So we have our core users and more than 40% would be very disappointed if it was taken away. Do we wait two weeks? Do we wait two months? When's the right time to expand that segment? **Daniel Erickson** [13:49]: So when it's been steady for a little while now that could be two weeks or two months, depending on how often your users are actually interacting with your app. You know, if it's something they're logging into once a week, you're probably to want wait for a couple of months or so before you start expanding just so that you can get more data around which segments to expand into. If it's something daily, like, say, Superhuman, you know, you're in that multiple times a day, then I think you could even do it almost the same day that you reach product market fit. **Harry Stebbings** [14:13]: Yeah, no, I I totally agree, especially in terms of frequency of usage. If we think about kind of getting that data in there, now we have this kind of actionable user data that we can really engage with. What questions should founders be asking of that data to make it really fundamentally useful to their product decision making going forward? **Daniel Erickson** [14:29]: Sure. To help you figure out what to build next, we add three additional questions to the survey. So those are, what kind of person would get the most benefit from this product? This one digs into how the customers describe themselves. So they'll describe themselves as busy executives that have a lot of email, for example, for Superhuman. But this will help you understand how the market that you're targeting talks about itself. The next question is, what is the main benefit you receive from this product? This shows you your product strengths. And the last one is, how can we improve this product for you? This shows you the holes that you can target to fill in to help more people become really strong fits for your product. These questions are aimed at helping you understand your market, discover what your target market loves about your product, and what you should build to grow within that market. We surface themes in responses to the question, what is the main benefit you receive from this product and filter it down to just the customers who would be very disappointed if they could no longer use your product to show you your product's biggest strengths. By doubling down on those strengths, you're showing your customers that you really understand what the value in your product is, and you're maintaining your lead against the competition. Similarly, by surfacing themes in response to the question, how can we improve this product for you and filtering it down to just the customers who would be somewhat disappointed if they could no longer use your product, the framework can show you how to improve your product to move these users into the strong fit segment. In this way, you increase the value that you provide for your existing users while addressing the things that were holding users back that were on the fence. **Harry Stebbings** [15:52]: Can I ask the question that kind of really brings out more questions for me is the third and final one, which is that how can we make it better? Because I'm permanently perplexed by, I think it was Thomas Ford's quote of like, you know, building a faster horse. How do you think about the right balance between ingesting and acting upon user data and engaging with it as part of your product decision making versus disregarding it and building a car and not a horse. **Daniel Erickson** [16:14]: So first off, sometimes users want a faster horse. Google and Zoom are both great examples of that. that. said, product is both an art and a science. We take care of the science so that you can focus on the art of product management. You know, really understanding what's most important from a strategic perspective for your business, for your users, for other stakeholders, and we really help just surface the problems and areas to focus on. But how you tackle those problems are entirely up to you, and that's where the art of product management comes in. Also, you should discard the feedback that you receive from the users who would not be disappointed if they could no longer use your product. They're not really your target market or your audience, so it's best to just politely thank them for their feedback and shift your focus to the other two segments. **Harry Stebbings** [16:52]: Got you in terms of the shifting focus. I guess to shift the focus away from those that didn't love it, you also have a cohort that did love it, and you have that kind of earliest signs of PMF. And when we think about kind of post PMF as a stage in itself, it's super interesting to think back to your comment on ease and kind of the transience of it and having it one day and not having it with the regulatory changes Once you have it in our metaphorical startup that we've co-founded together, this is very exciting, by the way, Daniel. I don't just do podcasts. I found companies in the middle of them. Tell me, how do we keep that early sign of product market fit, and what do we need to continuously do to sustain it? **Daniel Erickson** [17:25]: So, yeah, this is a cycle that you should continually do even after you reach product market fit. And I think that's one of the coolest things about the framework because it can help you prioritize your projects even after you've found it. So the simple answer is just keep the cycle going. Stay in touch with your users, identify which ones are in your target market, double down on your strengths, continue to remove reasons for users not to love you. you. can even transition to feature market fit. So testing each of your features that you release to see what effect it has on your PMF score. Basically, you compare it with AB testing to understand how each feature that you release is affecting how your customers are perceiving your product. This ensures that really only the features that actually move the needle make it into your product. **Harry Stebbings** [18:01]: Can I be blunt? Does this really scale? Because absolutely, you get some incredible user data, but when you have 500 users, it's it's very different to when you have 50,000 users. How scalable is that as a model in terms of data ingestion? **Daniel Erickson** [18:14]: So super scalable because we we've actually layered on some data analysis tools on top. So you're not required to read through every response that comes in. We actually dig in and pull out keywords and themes from all of these things, and we help you visualize those at a bird's eye view to really understand how sentiment is changing across your different market segments. **Harry Stebbings** [18:34]: Can I ask, you know, we've spoken about kind of the core product there, we've spoken about the product launch, so to speak. If we have an external company with multiple product lines, where else in the org do you think kind of this PMF assessment can really come into play and move the needle? **Daniel Erickson** [18:47]: Yeah. So PMF scores, especially when combined with segmentation, can help a growing product grow even faster. For example, account executives at a freemium SaaS company can identify which customers are getting the most value out of their free tier and target them to upsell them to the paid product. Marketers can see which segments really love their product and build campaigns to target them specifically, resulting in more efficient ad spend and more effective ads. Outbound sales can target only the segments that love your product when doing customer outreach. So listening to how each customer talks about the product and understanding how much they love your product will give these teams superpowers. **Harry Stebbings** [19:21]: Listen, I love that in terms of its expansion within the org. I guess my question for you is one that I'm sure you've had a lot, especially kind of when speaking to investors, is I totally understand this. It's one of those products which totally makes sense. But I guess directly, it feels like a startup product. Why do you believe that there's a massive company to be built in the kind of more PMF assessment space? **Daniel Erickson** [19:41]: Yeah. So first off, while we do assess product market fit, I wouldn't say that we're in the PMF assessment space. I'd put us squarely in the product intelligence category. So like Mixpanel and Amplitude, we help you answer tough questions about your product, but we're focused on getting solid answers to fuzzy questions using qualitative data instead of getting quantifiable answers to specific questions using quantitative data. In short, we can tell you what your users love about your product and what your users need from it, And tools like Amplitude and Mixpanel can tell you how those users use your product. So we're really complementary in the space. I would say we're sort of forging a new category here and it's basically qualitative product intelligence. So we augment those analytics tools. So really anybody who is a customer of Mixpanel, Amplitude, any of those product analytics tools can get a lot of value out of Viable Fit for understanding how their customers are thinking about their products. **Harry Stebbings** [20:30]: I mean, for me as an investor, it'd be an incredible, like, slide two is your product market fit score or your viable fit score in every single deck. That to me would be kind of the end vision. I don't know if that's quite the end vision for you. **Daniel Erickson** [20:42]: That is definitely the dream. We to make PMF the next NPS and specifically have it focused on product success instead of the more customer service and operations teams oriented approach that NPS takes. **Harry Stebbings** [20:53]: No, totally. And as an investor, I would love to see that in every deck. It would help me in terms of judgment so much. So please, Daniel, make this I do want move into a quick fire round this. So I say a short statement and then you hit me with your immediate thoughts. Are you ready to rock and roll? **Daniel Erickson** [21:06]: Let's do this. **Harry Stebbings** [21:07]: Okay. So I really need to read more, especially in quarantine. What's your favorite book and why should we be reading it? **Daniel Erickson** [21:12]: So my favorite book to now is Atomic Habits by James Clear. It's the most actionable book that I've read. It really helps you understand how habit loops work and how they drive your behavior and how to change them. And when I said actionable, literally every chapter has something that you can apply to your life to help you better shape your own habits. **Harry Stebbings** [21:30]: I love that. I get so bored of the business books which stay at feet for so long. Tell me, what do you know now that you wish you'd known at the beginning? **Daniel Erickson** [21:37]: So to be honest, I still feel like I'm at the beginning, but something I've learned over the years that ties into this question really well is that you should learn to keep a beginner's mind. Don't make assumptions and make sure you're asking questions when they come to mind. Embarrassment is temporary, but knowledge is forever. So it's best to just get that embarrassment out of the way so that you can get to that knowledge. **Harry Stebbings** [21:56]: What do you think are the biggest misconceptions around product market fit? **Daniel Erickson** [21:59]: I think we touched on it already, but that once you have it, it's yours for good. Product market fit is like any other metric. It can rise and fall as your product and market changes and grows. And there's it's not this static thing that once you get it, you've got it. **Harry Stebbings** [22:11]: What's your biggest advice to founders when it comes to round construction? **Daniel Erickson** [22:15]: So I would say in the early stages at least, don't worry too much about valuation. It's a good idea to keep an eye on dilution, but it's better to raise less at a lower valuation and a lower dilution than to raise at a larger amount at a high valuation early on. You need to make sure that you're keeping enough headroom for the valuation of the next round to make sense. **Harry Stebbings** [22:31]: Listen, I love that and I wholeheartedly agree with you there. Tell me, you know, you obviously started in Portland, now in the Valley, and been in the Valley for a number of years. What would you most like to change about Silicon Valley today? **Daniel Erickson** [22:41]: I'd love to see the Silicon Valley ethos uploaded to the cloud. So COVID has shown us that distributed teams can still achieve outstanding results. There's no longer a need to keep us all co-located. and I'd love to live in a world where the best ideas get funded no matter where the team is based. **Harry Stebbings** [22:55]: Would you stay in the Valley? **Daniel Erickson** [22:57]: I actually don't think I would, at least not the majority of my team. I'm already building a distributed team. I currently own a house in the Valley, but nothing stopping me from moving somewhere that's a cheaper cost of living for sure. **Harry Stebbings** [23:07]: This is a tough one that's not in the schedule. What's the secret to working with your brother so effectively? It's always a tough thing working with family. What's the secret to making it work? **Daniel Erickson** [23:15]: Interestingly, Jeff and I have never really been the type to argue. Even growing up, we were very much more collaborative than competitive. And I think bringing that collaborative mindset in is really, really, important when you're working with somebody who's so close to you. It can be really good because you know each other really, really, well. But the downside is sometimes you can kind of anticipate what the other person's thinking and even like preempt them sometimes when really it might be better for the team or for the situation that you're in to let them express those things. **Harry Stebbings** [23:42]: Tell me, I'm an investor today. I'm always thinking about what more I can do. And we always hear the kind of VC value add marketing spree. If an investor can provide one value to you other than capital, of course, what would it be? **Daniel Erickson** [23:53]: So I think this is quite dependent on the company that you're trying to build. Different companies are target different qualities in investors. But as a fairly product focused and technical team, I look for investors who can augment those skills by helping us take this product to market and by introducing us to the right contacts in their portfolio or providing advice on marketing and sales. **Harry Stebbings** [24:11]: Yeah, no, I totally agree in terms of the augmentation there. Tell me, what's the next five years for you and for Viable Fit? If everything goes right and all the stars align, what does this look like? **Daniel Erickson** [24:20]: In five years, PMF will be the main metric that product teams track to gauge success, much like NPS now is for support and operations teams. Viable Fit will have rocketed out of the tech industry and gained a foothold in enterprise companies across all industries. And for me specifically, I hope that I continue to grow into the kind of CEO that can run a high growth company. in order to tackle those goals above, I'm gonna have to change myself a lot. And I'm sure focusing on my habits and keeping a beginner's mind is gonna help me there **Harry Stebbings** [24:47]: It totally will, and I look forward to doing a second episode in a couple of years time and discuss the development. But listen, Dan, as I said, I I had so many great things from Todd, from Jeff, from David. So thank you so much for joining me today. and this was so much fun. **Daniel Erickson** [24:58]: It was great talking with you. **Harry Stebbings** [25:02]: It really is one of those products which you can just apply to every startup. I've sat in so many meetings since, and I thought I would wonder what your product market fit score is. I couldn't be more excited for Viable Fit in the future there. If you'd like to see more from us behind the scenes, you can on Instagram at Stebbings @hstebbings1996 with two b's. I always love to see you there. But before we leave you today, ## Sponsor read **Harry Stebbings** [25:21]: you have to check out Main Street. Main Street helps startups discover tax credits and incentives they didn't even know existed. The average startup using Main Street will save more than $50,000 with less than thirty minutes of work. Now that's an incredible ROI. And it's an incredibly easy way to get non dilutive cash to help extend your runway, especially in these times. So go to mainstreet.us/20vc to skip the waitlist and get a 25% discount. It's free to sign up. They only make money when you make money. It's a total no brainer. And speaking of total no brainers, the team over at Pendo, the product cloud company, just launched a free product performance benchmarks microsite where you can see how your product stacks up against your peers. They gave me a sneak preview and my reaction was like, holy hell. I know so many founders who are desperate to compare their products to competitors. And that's what Pendo's done. They've analyzed more than software products and created benchmarks for startups, scale ups, and enterprises across five different categories. It's all presented with some pretty slick visualizations, and you should check it out at product That's pendo.io/product-benchmarks. As always, I so appreciate all your support, and I can't wait to bring you another set of fantastic episodes next week.